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Ready to #deGoogle 💯 per cent?

We've reviewed the top five smartphones that help you go Google-free in 2026.

@volla
@Fairphone
@murena
#SHIFTphone
#Punkt

Which one is your favorite?

➡️ tuta.com/blog/degoogled-phones

Dieser Beitrag wurde bearbeitet. (1 Woche her)

teilten dies erneut

Als Antwort auf Tuta

I would love to have a Volla phone someday! I am currently using a Pixel 3a XL, but with Ubuntu Touch on it, so it still takes me a while to completely degoogle.

Do you have any plans in the near future to develop a Tuta app for Ubuntu Touch too? It is not quite convenient because I need to use WayDroid to access my Tuta mail.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bearbeitet. (1 Woche her)
Als Antwort auf Anh Nguyen Nguyen

Right now, we don't have this on the roadmap, but will discuss with the team.
Als Antwort auf Tuta

Maybe update the Calyx note to avoid/postpone installs until they start providing new versions in the future?
Als Antwort auf Tuta

Beim Shiftphone wird einmal etwas seltsam zwischen "Du" und "Sie" gewechselt. Generell switch't der Bericht zwischen sachlicher Aussage und direkter Ansprache, was etwas ablenkt. Ansonsten gute Zusammenfassung.
Als Antwort auf Tuta

great article! Is it not worth including the Jolla Sailfish (Linux) family of phones, namely the C2 and upcoming new device later this year? You can get android apps like yours installed via microg which send no details back to Google.
Als Antwort auf Tuta

#grapheneOS, the rest is far away from secure!
Dieser Beitrag wurde bearbeitet. (1 Woche her)
Als Antwort auf SmarTekk

@andree4live LOL GrapheneOS isnt google free because it only runs on Pixel which is literally google.
Als Antwort auf cake-duke

@oneloop @andree4live Murena sends user data to OpenAI without consent and always using many Google services along with providing Google services with highly privileged access unavailable to others. The hardware and software for everything Tuta is promoting has poor privacy and atrocious security. GrapheneOS uses Pixels because they're the only devices with alternate OS support and a reasonable level of security where we can compete with and exceed iPhones instead of being a downgrade.
Als Antwort auf cake-duke

@oneloop 100% googlefree! With your explanation there is no googlefreephone cause AOSP is also Google
Als Antwort auf SmarTekk

@andree4live @oneloop additionally, every website you visit you should check if it's hosted in the Google Cloud because that would mean it's not Google Free either.

So the question is, what is the definition of Google Free? For me, it is by default no connections to any Google server, no usage of any Google app, etc. And the control is fully with the user.
And with this definition, as far as I know, there is only #grapheneOS.
Others seem to connect at least to the captive portal or supl or connectivity checks to google server

Als Antwort auf Okuna

@Okuna
@andree4live @oneloop
Still waiting for it to run on (almost) anything other that a pixel.
Als Antwort auf 0x0

@0x0 @andree4live @oneloop For me, security is priority 1 and GOS on pixel seems to be the most secure
So I swallow the shit that i have to buy google hw.
Als Antwort auf Okuna

@Okuna I wonder on what basis you say this.

I'm not an expert, so I can't evaluate by myself. However, the incessant mud slinging by the grapheneOS project to anything that isn't produced by them, makes me skeptical.

Als Antwort auf cake-duke

@oneloop yes, their communication habits have been a point of discussion in many forums and from a lot of people, even people who really respect their technical capabilities. I once went to their forum and asked a few questions because i was a newbie and basically they said if I ask one more question in this regards they blocked me from the forum.
But since there is no perfect solution where moral and communication and technical capabilities etc are all perfect, I have to prioritize.
Whenever I needed help from the forum or from people in the discussion forums of GrapheneOS, I got competent and quick help.
Als Antwort auf Okuna

@Okuna @oneloop

> their communication habits have been a point of discussion in many forums and from a lot of people

You're largely referencing libelous harassment content including from Kiwi Farms users/supporters.

> because i was a newbie and basically they said if I ask one more question in this regards they blocked me from the forum

This never happened and is an outrageous lie.

> I got competent and quick help.

You use GrapheneOS and have received help, yet thank us by attacking us.

Als Antwort auf Okuna

@Okuna

> I once went to their forum and asked a few questions because i was a newbie and basically they said if I ask one more question in this regards they blocked me from the forum.

Yuck. To me software is more than just features. It's also about making society better. I have to say I already had a not-so-positive impression of their project, but your account really sealed it for me.

Als Antwort auf cake-duke

@oneloop @Okuna It's a fabricated story with absolutely no evidence which you're taking as a fact and spreading. Meanwhile, you've repeatedly attacked us for not providing links to further information in advance for independently verifiable facts we've communicated. You have no issue taking a completely unsubstantiated story about us as the truth with no evidence though. You expect us to provide sources for information you can easily find yourself but will simply treat lies about us as facts.
Als Antwort auf Okuna

@andree4live @oneloop
economicsecurityproject.org/ne…

I tried to survive 24 hours without using big tech. It was impossible

Dieser Beitrag wurde bearbeitet. (1 Woche her)
Als Antwort auf Okuna

@Okuna @andree4live At the same time, I'm not a fundamentalist. I do put effort into this without making my life impossible. Never ever interacting with something hosted by google: impossible. Not running on Google's hardware: possible.
Als Antwort auf cake-duke

@oneloop @Okuna @andree4live None of the options being promoted by Tuta has current privacy or security patches. They're not safe options let alone highly private ones.

/e/ has their own invasive services including sending user data to OpenAI without consent, user tracking in the updater and has highly privileged integration of Google services that's active out-of-the-box.

Pixels are currently the only smartphones where it's possible to compete with iPhone security.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@GrapheneOS @Okuna @andree4live
> Pixels are currently the only smartphones where it's possible to compete with iPhone security.

Do you want to provide a link so I can read why this is the case, with technical details?

Sure, I can search on my own, but I won't know if the things I find are the things you're referring to.

Als Antwort auf cake-duke

@oneloop @Okuna @andree4live grapheneos.org/faq#future-devi… is a starting point. We're currently working with a major Android OEM towards their devices meeting these requirements. It means massively improving their approach to privacy/security patches and adding multiple hardware-based protections including hardware memory tagging and better secure element integration currently nearly fully missing outside Pixels. They weren't able to get it done for 2026 so the support will launch in 2027.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@oneloop @Okuna @andree4live The claims in Tuta's post about GrapheneOS hardware support are a mix of inaccurate and misleading claims. GrapheneOS uses Pixels because they have far stronger security than other devices. Privacy depends on security.

Privacy also depends on privacy patches and protections missing for each of the options they're promoting.

The invasive services included in most of what Tuta is promoting are also hard to square with these being promoted as private.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@oneloop @Okuna @andree4live /e/ sending user speech data to OpenAI vs. Apple doing local processing on the device for it is only one example of that but it's representative of a lot more than that.
Als Antwort auf cake-duke

@oneloop @Okuna @andree4live They're going to be announcing it at a major event they're attending in the future. We've chosen not to reveal it prematurely so that it can be properly announced. It's one of the top 10 Android OEMs by device sales though. We tried to work with several smaller companies before and it didn't ever work out because they weren't able to meet our requirements. Multiple also switched direction and/or went out of business. This is much different than that.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Really hoping you've managed to convince Samsung! I'm not going to buy a Chinese device.
Dieser Beitrag wurde bearbeitet. (1 Woche her)
Als Antwort auf Bonsai861

I think you can forget about Samsung. The bootloader can no longer be opened, and support for other ROMs is simply not available.
Als Antwort auf SmarTekk

I was hoping it was Sony but they aren't in the top 10 OEMs so its likely a Chinese owned OEM, which means the next phone I buy won't be a GrapheneOS capable device. Maybe time to switch to @jolla
Dieser Beitrag wurde bearbeitet. (1 Woche her)
Als Antwort auf Bonsai861

SailfishOS has poor privacy compared to AOSP and extraordinarily bad security. It doesn't have basic standard patches and protections. Their hardware has far worse security than mainstream hardware. Unlike AOSP, SailfishOS also isn't open source but rather most of what's specific to it is closed source. It's not possible to fork SailfishOS as it is with AOSP and it's a much worse starting point for privacy and security regardless of that.
Als Antwort auf cake-duke

@oneloop @andree4live This is a dramatically less private and secure operating system than AOSP. It's largely developed by IBM, another massive tech company involved in many unethical things. They only support far less secure devices and don't provide proper updates with basic privacy and security patches for any of those. Misleading people about GrapheneOS and trying to promote unsafe options failing to meet the most basic expectations for privacy and security leads to us responding.
Als Antwort auf cake-duke

@oneloop @andree4live Currently this is the situation actually, but GrapheneOS has been already trying to change it, by cooperating with an OEM to produce a GrapheneOS-ready phone as an alternative to Pixels.
Als Antwort auf Tuta

I am quite happy with the shiftphone 8 I got from @shiftphones

currently running lineageos on it

Als Antwort auf Tuta

Anyone know of American based Linux phones? Half the time European ones don't ship overseas.
Als Antwort auf Tuta

💯 @GrapheneOS because of it's sound security and prompt patch delivery
Als Antwort auf Tuta

since 5 years i use a phone from the murena shop, now a fairphone

no problems, very good

it is a preinstalled option no tinkering required

Als Antwort auf Tuta

• GrapheneOS

Murena - „degoogled"?
hear-me.social/@Lacze/11502548…

Als Antwort auf Tuta

Every option you're promoting has atrocious privacy and security. Each one lacks the most basic privacy and security patches/protections.

You're also making highly inaccurate and misleading claims about GrapheneOS. This has been a repeated issue with Tuta. It's not surprising considering you're supporting groups not only scamming people but actively spreading misinformation about GrapheneOS and attacking our team with harassment.

We're going to be publishing a response to Tuta.

koehntopp ~ : hat dies geteilt.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@GrapheneOS @Okuna grapheneOS incessant mud slinging. You're toxic.

social.tchncs.de/@Okuna/115826…


@oneloop yes, their communication habits have been a point of discussion in many forums and from a lot of people, even people who really respect their technical capabilities. I once went to their forum and asked a few questions because i was a newbie and basically they said if I ask one more question in this regards they blocked me from the forum.
But since there is no perfect solution where moral and communication and technical capabilities etc are all perfect, I have to prioritize.
Whenever I needed help from the forum or from people in the discussion forums of GrapheneOS, I got competent and quick help.

Als Antwort auf cake-duke

@oneloop @Okuna No, it's you who is toxic. You engage in libel and harassment along with supporting companies led by serial harassers. Here's the CEO of Murena linking to libelous harassment content from a neo-nazi conspiracy site as part of directly supporting French law enforcement attacks on GrapheneOS:

archive.is/SWXPJ
archive.is/n4yTO

Murena has engaged in very extensive harassment, false marketing and outright scamming. That's toxic, not your lies about us.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@oneloop @Okuna Defending ourselves from endless misinformation, false marketing and harassment including Tuta's repeated attacks on GrapheneOS is not toxic. Tuta should actually try making private/secure services instead of endless false attacks on Proton, GrapheneOS and others. Tuta should really cut out the misinformation and focus on improving their extremely flawed services far worse than their competitors. This is not the first time they're misleading people about GrapheneOS.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

in what way did they mislead about Graphene? They mention it's highly secure, did I miss something?
Als Antwort auf ulveon.net (on derg.social)

@ulveon @Okuna @oneloop The claim that GrapheneOS is a security project rather than a privacy project is a false narrative. It's a privacy project providing huge privacy enhancements, which do not exist in any of what's promoted in their post. Each of the options promoted in their post also lacks standard privacy patches and protections which are crucial for protecting user privacy. Privacy depends on security so we work on security too rather than massively rolling it back like those.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

and as far as I know Graphene offers extremely comprehensive security features including idle reboot for bringing phones to BFU, memory hardening (several types), and exploit protection. These are all security improvements that greatly aid in effectively protecting privacy.

As a matter of fact, and exactly as you mention, you cannot exactly have good privacy guarantees without a comprehensive security baseline, which as you also mention, other distros do not have. LineageOS has many privacy protections but they don't incorporate the aforementioned GrapheneOS security features and therefore this weakens their privacy offer.

I don't know, I don't really see where Tuta egregiously mischaracterised Graphene but admittedly I am also not that well versed in the technical improvements of Graphene over AOSP at a code level (I can understand them conceptually, though).

Als Antwort auf ulveon.net (on derg.social)

@ulveon @Okuna @oneloop LineageOS does not provide current Android privacy patches and protections. It does not add any substantial privacy improvements. /e/ massively rolls back privacy from LineageOS, not only security.

GrapheneOS provides major privacy enhancements including fixing multiple outbound Android VPN leaks, Storage Scopes, Contact Scopes, per-connection Wi-Fi DHCP leases / MAC randomization and FAR MORE. It has a very strict privacy approach to services too.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@ulveon @Okuna @oneloop The false narrative that GrapheneOS is a security project rather than a privacy project comes from groups like Murena misleading people both about what we provide and the unsafe products they're selling to market those. They're falsely claiming GrapheneOS is a security project in order to present their highly insecure products as privacy products instead, but it's wrong. They lack standard privacy patches/protections and they make it worse than AOSP not better.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@ulveon @Okuna @oneloop You clearly aren't as familiar with these topics as you believe you are and have clearly been misled by false narratives about GrapheneOS. Tuta is directly participating in spreading misinformation and false narratives about GrapheneOS which is going to have a cost of their business, especially within the GrapheneOS userbase. This false narrative that we do security rather than privacy causes a lot of harm to us, as does other false marketing by these products.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@GrapheneOS @ulveon @Okuna @oneloop I think a 'security object' is automatically also a 'privacy project', since a high level security is required to safeguard privacy. GrapheneOS is following a 'privacy by security' approach to ensure its users' privacy. Without security, there is no privacy.
Als Antwort auf Rebel Zhang

@rebel1725 @ulveon @Okuna @oneloop GrapheneOS is a privacy project and that's the primary area we work on in the OS, our apps and our services. Our focus on security is entirely to protect privacy. It's not a separate thing but there's a false narrative propagating by Murena and other companies similar to them that GrapheneOS is a security project while they are somehow privacy projects despite providing poor privacy and violating user privacy with their services. Nope, that's wrong.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@rebel1725 @ulveon @Okuna @oneloop A privacy project does not send user data to OpenAI without consent, then try to cover it up including falsely claiming that it's anonymized data when it isn't.

community.e.foundation/t/voice…

A privacy project does not fail to provide basic privacy patches and protections while misleading users with a fake patch level and frequently misleading users with false claims about the situation.

Murena and /e/ exist for a group of people to profit, not privacy.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@GrapheneOS @ulveon @Okuna @oneloop Vosk is a very mature offline voice to text solution within the free software community. There is a keyboard based on Vosk and is available on F-Droid: f-droid.org/packages/com.elish…

This can replace the service who processes the voice on the SaaSS, is considered anti-freedom and anti-privacy and is referred to by GrapheneOS in the post I am replying to.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@GrapheneOS @ulveon @Okuna @oneloop

I don't understand what the issue here is. The Tuta article says GOS is "well known for its focus on security and privacy". The earliest snapshot wayback machine shows this as well. So.... what's going on here?

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@GrapheneOS @oneloop @Okuna
Hi @GrapheneOS, Could you please tell why tuta is not that secure? I choose it especially for security but now I'm confused. Thanks
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@GrapheneOS @oneloop @Okuna
Out of curiosity, in which ways are Tuta's services "highly flawed" in your opinion ? You said this and I'd like to know the base of this claim please.
Als Antwort auf confettiarenasabotage

@Canning1452 @GrapheneOS @Okuna Exactly, this sort of thing is what I meant what I said "vague unfalsifiable accusations". The energy they put into mud slinging is sick.
Dieser Beitrag wurde bearbeitet. (1 Woche her)
Als Antwort auf cake-duke

@oneloop @Canning1452 @Okuna It's you who is making false accusations and engaging in mud slinging towards GrapheneOS. This started with Tuta's years of false and misleading claims aboiut GrapheneOS while they promote outright scams falsely claiming to provide privacy and security they do not to profit from it. You should stop lying about us and projecting what yourself and other people do in your attacks on GrapheneOS onto us. It's Tuta and yourself pushing false narratives, not us...
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@oneloop @Canning1452 @Okuna The energy Tuta puts into mud slinging towards Proton, GrapheneOS and others while promoting outright scams is what's sick. The fact that you support it and repeatedly lie about the GrapheneOS team is sick. The more you attack our team, the more effort we'll put into responding to Tuta's false narratives going forwards. If Tuta and their supporters keep up the false narratives, we'll ask our userbase to cancel their subscriptions to Tuta to support us.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@GrapheneOS @oneloop @Canning1452 @Okuna For regular users, I think Disroot or Riseup are ideal choices. For technology and GNU/Linux enthusiasts, most of the tildes from tildeverse.org provide email services too. For those who are activists or leftists, go for Autistici/Inventati.

I use Tuta too, but a free version, and I use it only for registering accounts, and I almost never use it for private communications.

Als Antwort auf cake-duke

As a reminder, here you are spreading a false story about GrapheneOS with absolutely no evidence earlier in this thread while making an attack on us:

mastodon.xyz/@oneloop/11582759…

You're spreading a baseless lie about our team (libel) while having seen absolutely no evidence for it. At the same time, you're falsely accusing us of doing what you're objectively and provably doing earlier in this thread. It's ridiculous how desperate you folks are to attack GrapheneOS.


@GrapheneOS @Okuna grapheneOS incessant mud slinging. You're toxic.

social.tchncs.de/@Okuna/115826…

@Okuna@social.tchncs.de:

@oneloop yes, their communication habits have been a point of discussion in many forums and from a lot of people, even people who really respect their technical capabilities. I once went to their forum and asked a few questions because i was a newbie and basically they said if I ask one more question in this regards they blocked me from the forum.
But since there is no perfect solution where moral and communication and technical capabilities etc are all perfect, I have to prioritize.
Whenever I needed help from the forum or from people in the discussion forums of GrapheneOS, I got competent and quick help.



Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@GrapheneOS @Okuna

Here's my tip on communication. If your claim is that Murena sends data etc etc, you should just state that the first time around. Instead you just made vague unfalsifiable statements.

grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/…

grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/…


@lexinova Each of the options they're promoting has poor privacy in addition to atrocious security. None of those provide current privacy patches and important privacy protections. Disregarding whatever Tuta says about privacy and avoiding their sketchy services is a good approach. Tuta is much worse than many of their competitors including Proton. Instead of improving their products they spread endless misinformation in their marketing and attack serious privacy/security projects.

Als Antwort auf cake-duke

@oneloop @Okuna There's nothing vague about what we send and it's verifiable information. If you do a bit of research, you can easily find proof of everything we said.

community.e.foundation/t/voice…

eylenburg.github.io/android_co…

codeberg.org/divested-mobile/d…

kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfr…

discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134…

We also weren't finished responding, but you started pushing a false narrative about us based around libelous harassment content which Murena and Volla have both helped to promote.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@oneloop @Okuna Murena and /e/ do not provide anything close to current Android, Linux, driver or firmware privacy/security patches. They also heavily mislead users about this with an inaccurate Android security patch level and relentless false claims about it.

Murena has numerous invasive services included in /e/ including sending user speech data to OpenAI without consent, which they then tried to downplay by falsely claiming the data is anonymized. Easy to confirm.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@oneloop @Okuna It's easy to confirm /e/ always connects to multiple Google services and has highly privileged integration for a bunch of Google services built into the OS, which is active out-of-the-box rather than opt-in.

Tuta is doing incredibly misleading marketing for unsafe products which in fact have poor privacy and atrocious security compared to an iPhone or AOSP. It's unsurprising as they've been doing it for a while and make endless inaccurate attacks on Proton and others.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

So wait, me calling you toxic is libel, but you calling me toxic is not libel? You're not serious people, this is just more mud slinging.
Dieser Beitrag wurde bearbeitet. (1 Woche her)
Als Antwort auf cake-duke

@oneloop @Okuna You're actively lying about our team and you boosted someone's fabricated story about us despite having no evidence of it being true. Meanwhile, you keep demanding we show sources for verifiable statements we've made despite the fact that you'll amplify fabrications about it with no proof. You don't acknowledge it after we've posted it either. Spreading a fabricated story about us with no evidence shown to you demonstrates your demands from us are in bad faith.
Als Antwort auf cake-duke

You linked to a fabricated story above which you're presenting as fact despite zero evidence for it.

mastodon.xyz/@oneloop/11582759…

Meanwhile, you've made a bunch of posts demanding we provide sources for verifiable information we've provided, but you're happy to spread lies about us with no evidence for them. It's when we post something which you could verify yourself with research that you expect evidence but not someone claiming something negative about us that's untrue.


@GrapheneOS @Okuna grapheneOS incessant mud slinging. You're toxic.

social.tchncs.de/@Okuna/115826…

@Okuna@social.tchncs.de:

@oneloop yes, their communication habits have been a point of discussion in many forums and from a lot of people, even people who really respect their technical capabilities. I once went to their forum and asked a few questions because i was a newbie and basically they said if I ask one more question in this regards they blocked me from the forum.
But since there is no perfect solution where moral and communication and technical capabilities etc are all perfect, I have to prioritize.
Whenever I needed help from the forum or from people in the discussion forums of GrapheneOS, I got competent and quick help.



Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@GrapheneOS @Okuna I said that you're toxic because that's been my experience interacting with grapheneOS in the past, and I linked to what another person said which also agreed with my experience. You characterize that as "presenting a fabricated story as fact". I don't know if their story is fabricated. Could be. I'm not presenting it "as fact", you're characterizing it that way. You're twisting things to suit you, which again agrees with my past experience interacting with you.
Als Antwort auf cake-duke

@oneloop @Okuna You're repeatedly posting lies about GrapheneOS and our team along with amplifying lies from others. You demanded evidence from us for verifiable information you could have checked yourself, but you made no such demands from the person telling a negative story about us which is in fact untrue. You're amplifying libel about our team and are engaging in posting your own libel about us. You're supporting harassment towards our team and being toxic but claim we are...
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@GrapheneOS @Okuna I'm not telling any story, I linked to someone. You're unhinged, take a break.
Als Antwort auf cake-duke

@GrapheneOS @Okuna BTW the person you're accusing of fabricating things, if you read what they said, they were saying that grapheneOS is the best mobile OS, and that they use it DESPITE their really bad interactions with your community. Is that part fabricated as well?
Als Antwort auf cake-duke

@oneloop @Okuna What they claimed happened did not happen. It's common for people to post fabrications about us while trying to give it weight by talking about using GrapheneOS. We remove toxic people from our community.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@GrapheneOS
I think you should lay low on this one. They promoted you too, and you are literally saying GrapheneOS has atrocious privacy and security.
No, not being on the front page doesn't mean you are not being promoted. By making this honest mistake, you yourself is no different from others in making "highly inaccurate and misleading" claims about GrapheneOS, by your standards. Because your standards are asking for perfection in communication, which you cannot provide yourself.
Als Antwort auf FDA approved lychee

@PaintedDurian It's not an honest mistake by Tuta but rather a long term decision by them to promote products with poor privacy and security which are willing to mutually promote Tuta's services in response. The article is filled with highly inaccurate and misleading claims about everything that's covered. We have not made any inaccurate claims here. Tuta has been corrected about their false claims repeatedly and yet chooses to keep making more posts doubling down on making them.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@PaintedDurian Endless posts with inaccurate claims about Proton and GrapheneOS is not smart marketing and is going to hurt them.

Tuta has chosen to regularly post about this topic, frequently making inaccurate and misleading claims about GrapheneOS along with what they're promoting. We've made corrections before which they've disregarded completely and doubled down on it. It cannot be claimed that it's a mistake when it has been addressed so many times before but they keep going.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@PaintedDurian What they're doing there is not promoting GrapheneOS but rather spreading inaccurate and misleading claims about it including the false narrative that it's a security project rather than a privacy project. That's extremely harmful to GrapheneOS and we prefer being omitted from the article entirely over this kind of highly inaccurate and misleading coverage making things harder for us. Tuta's marketing team has been doing this for a long time. We've replied previously.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Interesting, I use both GrapheneOS and Tuta. You will have to argue things out, but I hope in particular that the Tuta e2ee is secure - you haven't suggested it's not, here.
Als Antwort auf Rebel Zhang

@rebel1725 They're not promoting GrapheneOS. They've spent years pushing harmful false narratives about it. A low quality list of software projects primarily aimed at promoting their own paid products and omitting those from their competitors is not promoting GrapheneOS. It's included there simply as part of padding it out to promote their products. We're talking about the article which was posted above with false narratives about GrapheneOS and other projects promoting using those.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@GrapheneOS I dont think everyone understands there not complaining about promotion there saying theres false claims and missguided info being pushed. On that same chart they push /e and other platforms and stuff that do not hold up to standards on basic privacy and security thats there issue
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

hey! Everybody just chill out for a minute here, go take a break and come back when we can learn to work together, instead of hurting the community.

I have spoken

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@PaintedDurian Good morning, we explicitly mentioned GrapheneOS because it is one of the most secure options out there - but running on a Pixel, we can't really call it deGoogle, that's why it didn't get more space in the article. In any case, we'd like to change anything that's wrong in this article about GrapheneOS so please let us know what we should update. Thanks.
Als Antwort auf Tuta

We specifically mentioned GrapheneOS because we believe it's a great project, some of our developers use GrapheneOS as well.

So we believe, this is a misunderstanding, and we'd like to understand and fix it.

Als Antwort auf Tuta

Wenn man so denkt gibt es fast kein Gerät welches Googlefree ist. So gut wie jeder Smartphone-Hersteller zahlt Lizenzgebühren an Google. Egal welches System anschließend aufgespielt wird. So gesehen ist ein Google Endgerät zu nutzen nicht mehr oder weniger degoogled als ein anderes Gerät zu nutzen. Wenn ihr näher forscht findet ihr schnell heraus das einige eurer genannter Systeme bzw Endgeräte dem Nutzer nicht die ganze Wahrheit erzählen
Als Antwort auf Tuta

GrapheneOS only supports Pixel devices because they're the only devices that match the security requirements of GrapheneOS. They would use another manufacturer if these requirements would be met.

grapheneos.org/faq#future-devi…

Als Antwort auf Raven

We've been partnered with a major Android OEM since June 2025. Their existing products do not meet our requirements and they have far more resources than the companies making those insecure products but that doesn't mean they can quickly meet our requirements. Making devices providing a reasonable level of privacy and security isn't easy. The plan is for them to launch devices with GrapheneOS support in 2027 since it couldn't be done for early 2026 devices.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

We aren't going to cut corners by supporting devices where we can't properly protect user privacy and security. The bare minimum which even non-hardened devices should provide is shipping current privacy/security patches. None of the 5 products promoted in Tuta's post are actually providing the important standard patches and protections. Most are using OSes such as /e/ setting inaccurate Android security patch levels and misleading users about all of this...
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

is the ram shortage affecting you guys ? Is it gonna be delayed later or have a higher than expected/normal price ?
Als Antwort auf Hari Prakash

It's impacted us in terms of local build hardware and servers but isn't having much impact on our OEM partnership. There are still going to be smartphones despite the RAM shortage. They're probably not going to increase the amount of RAM and might need to increase device prices but it should be in line with the overall smartphone market. We don't expect it to be an issue since it's going to be similar to any other devices which is fine.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

really looking forward to getting it when its available also can't wait to find out who you guys are partnering with ; )
Als Antwort auf Tuta

I would say that even though GrapheneOS requires hardware made by Google, it can be called „degoogled“. Why? Because the phone itself doesn’t use any Google services. It doesn’t phone home and it doesn’t share any data with Google. It’s just a bloody good piece of hardware and currently the best platform for a save and security mobile OS.

But when you consider that degoogling isn’t just stop using any Google services and sharing data with them, but also not buying anything from Google, then it’s probably not degoogling.

Als Antwort auf Doerk

@Doerk

Strictly speaking, "degoogled" would also include rejecting any mails coming from Google servers and not sending anything to gmail/googlemail accounts.

Custom domains on Google Apps (or whatever their business plattform is called nowadays) would make the last part rather difficult.

@Tuta @FDA approved lychee @GrapheneOS

Als Antwort auf Doerk

The biggest threat here is that future Pixels might not be as suitable for GrapheneOS as the current ones.
With pressure building up (e.g. in France) one might wonder how long that will last.
Is there a plan B for that case? How far away from degoogling are other smartphones, such as Fairphone, @GrapheneOS?
Als Antwort auf cd ~

Fairphones have poor security and would be a terrible device for GrapheneOS where many standard patches and standard security protections would be missing.

Fairphone's marketing about updates and long term support is highly inaccurate. They do not provide proper updates even shortly after launch. Fairphone 4 and Fairphone 5 both have end-of-life kernel branches already. Fairphone wasn't shipping the kernel LTS revisions even prior to that.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Fairphone is even worse than Erik Prince's Unplugged but because they say the right things to appeal to certain companies, a lot of people support them and fall for their phony claims about sustainability, updates and privacy. People need to differentiate marketing from the reality of what products provide. Tuta definitely isn't doing that and is promoting 5 products based on what the companies claim about themselves in their inaccurate marketing.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS is already working with a major Android OEM towards the first non-Pixel Android devices providing a reasonable level of security and meeting our official hardware requirements. Their current devices do not meet our requirements and cannot be supported. 2027 is the planned launch date because it wasn't possible to meet the hardware memory tagging requirement for 2026 and it would have been hard to get all the rest of it ready in time too.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Thank you for the update. I'm looking forward to that non-Google-GrapheneOS phone! Until 2027, (used) Pixels will do.
The somewhat bitter discussion here with Tuta is heartbreaking. I was hoping that the relatively few people around stick together, who are working towards the goals of privacy and independence.
Als Antwort auf cd ~

Tuta is supporting companies engaging in years of attacking GrapheneOS with misinformation and targeting our team with harassment. Their post is filled with the false marketing from those companies including false narratives and information about GrapheneOS. Tuta has repeatedly made posts deriding GrapheneOS for using the only available secure devices with alternate OS supporta and promoting blatantly unsafe options not providing what's claimed.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Does „reasonable level of security“ mean the same level a Pixel provides?
Als Antwort auf Tuta

Your article promotes 5 options providing poor privacy and atrocious security while making inaccurate claims in support of them and pushing false narratives about GrapheneOS. Misrepresenting GrapheneOS as being a security project rather than a privacy project and downplaying the privacy it provides is a common false narrative from multiple of the groups you're promoting attacking our project and team. That includes posting extreme harassment content towards our team.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

We're sorry to hear that, we didn't know about this. We put Graphene at the start of the article because of its value for everyone who wants to deGoogle (we're also looking forward to non-Pixel phones). We can update the part about Graphene to also underline the privacy aspect, will do so on Monday!
Als Antwort auf Tuta

You misrepresent multiple of the options you're promoting lacking basic privacy and security patches as being hardened. You're heavily promoting them as private despite them failing to provide standard privacy protections and patches.

Murena has engaged in years of relentless attacks on GrapheneOS inclouding harassment towards our team. We've posted a recent example of them doing it as part of trying to take advantage of French law enforcement attacks on GrapheneOS.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Multiple of products and companies you're promoting including Murena are blatantly scamming people with false privacy and security claims. /e/ fails to deliver standard privacy and security patches, fails to provide standard privacy and security protections along with including user tracking and sending user data to OpenAI without consent. Is that the approach Tuta takes to their products/services? Promoting products claiming to be private but are not looks bad for you.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@GrapheneOS @PaintedDurian Could you explain in what way all other projects mentioned in the article lack security and privacy? And maybe also provide some links or receipts of the alleged attacks and harassment?
Dieser Beitrag wurde bearbeitet. (1 Woche her)
Als Antwort auf Reid

@reiddragon @PaintedDurian Here's reading material for /e/ and Murena:

Sending user data to OpenAI without consent: community.e.foundation/t/voice…

Info on many still ongoing issues including not providing basic privacy/security patches, which is also an issue for each of the other 5 listed products:

codeberg.org/divested-mobile/d…
web.archive.org/web/2024123100…
web.archive.org/web/2025011921…
infosec.exchange/@divested/112…

kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfr…

discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134…

OS comparison: eylenburg.github.io/android_co…

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@GrapheneOS @PaintedDurian (excluding the kuketz-blog.de link as Firefox seems to have a hard time translating it) that covers /e/OS, but your earlier posts implied that every single option listed by Tuta had major issues, so maybe you should've been a tad clearer to begin with that it's /e/ that has major issues and also state the issues to begin with? Instead you went on the offensive right away and made wild claims with no explanation.
Als Antwort auf Reid

@reiddragon @PaintedDurian Each of the products listed there fails to provide important privacy/security patches and protections. We talked about /e/ because they listed the for-profit company for it (Murena) and 2 other companies officially partnered with them (Fairphone and SHIFTphone). /e/ is by far the most problematic option there but that doesn't mean the others aren't. None provides proper Android privacy/security patches, Linux kernel updates and standard protections...
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@reiddragon @PaintedDurian The article from Mike Kuketz is worth reading and he has other articles about other operating systems, as does the Divested Computing project. Unfortunately, /e/ and Murena along with their community silenced Divested Computing covered it with harassment.

We posted all of those links about /e/ and the clear example of Murena's CEO participating in harassment elsewhere in this thread. We just copied the links from there and replaced the text we wrote before.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@reiddragon @PaintedDurian A Google partner (Fairphone) with GMS in their stock OS running an alternate OS which has another GMS implementation included and always connects to Google services while giving them a highly privileged status in the OS somehow qualifies for the list.

Punkt heavily marketed that product as 'based on GrapheneOS' and 'hardened' because they used portions of our code, merged them with LineageOS and then didn't update AOSP or the GrapheneOS code for years.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@reiddragon @PaintedDurian CalyxOS is clearly not a privacy or security hardened OS. Their marketing is very misleading, but they don't actually claim it's either of those. It hasn't provided the 2026-06-05 or later patch level, while meanwhile the current public patch level for AOSP is 2025-12-05 but the current patches for January 2026 through June 2026 are also already available for OEMs to ship and nearly none of them bother doing that despite being allowed to ship them early.
Als Antwort auf Tuta

Tuta care about security? Yes? 🙃
👉 There is no privacy without security.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=WkQ_OCzu…

odysee.com/@davidbombal:0/why-…

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Fairphone is a Google partner with their own OS having official privileged Google Mobile Services integration but yet it's on your list.

/e/ always connects to Google services and has highly privileged integration for Googe apps and services unavailable to other apps but yet it's on your list.

You're making highly inaccurate claims to promote each of the 5 for-profit options you've included on your list including the nonsense claim that CalyxOS and Punkt are hardened.

Als Antwort auf Tuta

I'd say running a non-google OS on a Google Pixel is as de-googling as you can get.
Still, I hope you both can resolve this, and maybe GrapheneOS are right!
For example I was very suspicious when I first saw /e/ a few years ago - they wanted us to "register", the opposite of what Tuta quite rightly do in fact!
I love using Tuta mail!
Als Antwort auf Tuta

"DeGoogle" is the mistake, It's a meaningless term and its imaginary goal is completely irrelevant. All the products highlighted in your article are very poor in terms of security and privacy, and if we are to follow your reasoning, they are not "DeGoogle" in any way whatsoever, they all use Google services and they all depend on Google services, some, such as /e/, include their own intrusive services.

GrapheneOS really improves things, and this can be verified, these other products that you are promoting do not improve things, they make them worse. Presenting them under the guise of ‘deGoogle’ and ‘digital sovereignty’ is not relevant and is not judicious.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bearbeitet. (1 Woche her)
Als Antwort auf Tuta

by that statement can you call any phone trully degoogled they all make querys by default in the background to google most of which you cant control with out heavy restricted use id love to be told wrong in fact how many of the so called degoogled phones run googles dns by default im wondering i have not used some of these new os's but Im pretty positive none of those phones are trully degoogled
Als Antwort auf Privy_Info

GrapheneOS only connects to GrapheneOS services by default and doesn't give any privileged access to Google apps/services when installed on the OS. /e/ connects to a bunch of Google services and does give privileged access to them.

GrapheneOS has an OEM partner since June 2025 and we expect to have devices from them meeting all of our security requirements not currently provided by any non-Pixel Android devices which is why we use Pixels.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

I think the issue is an information dissconnect and a hyperfocus on a term such as degoogle with out realizing there are intricate parts where you could do more harm then any good by switching especially if there not only still making google connections and have deep integrations but also lack basic privacy and security to the devices as well.
Als Antwort auf Tuta

even better how many use googles supl for location i can tell you graphene os does NOT by default they proxy it and you can shut it off as well same with psds
Dieser Beitrag wurde bearbeitet. (1 Woche her)
Als Antwort auf Privy_Info

GrapheneOS doesn't need SUPL very much because PSDS provides the GNSS almanacs as static files and we have opt-in network location support with an iOS-style semi-offline implementation. We plan to add database download support for it. Our SUPL proxy will be replaced with using our own cellular database which will be possible to download for both SUPL and network location to function fully offline. That's being gradually worked towards already.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS - first off claiming these five are "atrocious" on privacy is total FUD. "Flawed" on privacy would be a way more accurate description - however even with their flaws they still offer way better experiences towards digital sovereignty than what you get from Google/Samsung/Apple. Also the article said "degoogled" - until y'all come up with your own hardware, you are 100% dependent on Google. Then again, sadly any OS using AOSP as its base (and even to a lesser extent, the ones using Libhybris and Halium) are also somewhat dependent on Google these days. Still, no Google = no Graphene devices. Instead of dogging other options why don't y'all FIX THAT.
Als Antwort auf sberson

@sberson It's absolutely not FUD. Each of the listed options fails to provide the most basic essential privacy and security protections. They fail to provide patches for critical severity privacy and security issues. Each of the 5 options they're promoting depend on Google as each of them is either based on AOSP or using Android's hardware support largely written by Google. They also depend on Google via using a bunch of other Google projects and projects they heavily contribute to.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@sberson The options which are being promoted have their own invasive services. As a particularly severe example, /e/ sends user data to OpenAI without consent for speech-to-text:

community.e.foundation/t/voice…

Apple does speech-to-text locally by default and Google at least supports doing it locally instead of using a service and offers it as an explicit option.

Providing important privacy and security patches is the bare minimum. None of those 5 options is doing that bare minimum.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@GrapheneOS I'm happy that the people making my OS are so much more paranoid than me. That means they think about more bad things I ever could
@Tutanota
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Stop attacking Tuta, this is the whole Louis Rossman situation all over again were you claimed he, 'attacked Grapheneos'. Fucking Child like mentality- your fighting a battle that doesn't matter.
Als Antwort auf Koran Moran

Louis Rossmann targets many companies and people with harassment from his fans. We aren't the only people he targeted with leaking private conversations he heavily misrepresents while pushing many fabrications about the context. We aren't the only people he has attacked with baseless claims of being delusional and insane. Look at how he attacked Linus Tech Tips and claimed they're delusional narcissists while leaking and lying about private emails. It's what Rossman does.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Many of the people harassing us from Rossmann's community are also targeting people involved with Linus Tech Tips and many other companies Rossmann targets. Rossmann has even had a Kiwi Farms account since 2022 which he uses to gather support there and rant about people / companies he doesn't like so they know who to attack for him. He's the one who involved Kiwi Farms to attack us. Their harassment/libel thread was created after he involved them.

kiwifarms.st/members/larossman…

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Your still mad at Louis Rossman? So stupid. You just get mad at everyone. This project is perfect, this idea I love, but your statements and attacks on people are terrible. You wonder why Louis Rossman leaked the private chat? It's because he personally felt you we're doing something wrong.
Als Antwort auf Tuta

I'm also very much interested in iodeOS.
One thing that bugs me, though, is the incredible stupidity of app developers (banking apps and the like) that force Google (or Apple, for that matter) down your throat. Still looking for a way to get them reasonable.
(European) digital sovereignty, anyone?
@volla @murena
Als Antwort auf Tuta

thanks needed to save some money after the big spend this Christmas. Thats €96 I can now choose to save until I find an alternative.
Als Antwort auf Tuta

that's a lame excuse for omitting Graphene OS. And those OS's you mention are scammers. Unfollowed
Als Antwort auf Miguel Torrellas

@migtorr Graphene is not Google-free. I personally look greatly forward to it supporting non-Google phones, though, as I read they announced. Because besides that con I imagine it's a very good option.
Als Antwort auf Tuta

I am incredibly disappointed in Tuta for publishing this blogpost. The options Tuta has presented worsen privacy and security, and this blogpost is is filled with misinformation. This seems counter to their stated goals.

I no longer have faith in Tuta to maintain my privacy or security, and I am reconsidering using the services that Tuta provides.

Als Antwort auf Tuta

If there's a list of private alternatives to Android but GrapheneOS is just an honoury mention, then there's nothing wrong with questioning the list.

While I'm not defending GrapheneOS's agitated response here, their arguments about questionable security and privacy of the products you promoted seems reasonable.

Tuta is a well respected secure email service. When you recommend alternatives, please keep the same standards in mind.

Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag

mastodon - Link zum Originalbeitrag
marcusxms
@GrapheneOS @lexinova ...but using Graphene is not Google free, sadly, when it's giving Google hundreds of dollars for the phone, and for many I believe that's more important. Looking forward to hearing about the new non-Google phones you're going to support, though, because besides that massive (to me) limitation I'd be curious to try out Graphene. It could very well be my favourite phone OS, maybe alongside a regular Linux phone that isn't Android.
Als Antwort auf Tuta

They're essentially all the same design, which is to say multiple camera having, GPS, AIs in the form of digital assistants embedded in them & none have physical keyboards, only Volla is military grade durable in said hardware, but it doesn't work in my country. So for my long-term needs in any smartphone I'd pay for, as they'd work for me year-round, which include having a physical keyboard, no AI and durability, none of these are real options.

Diversity in hardware is needed in the open source sphere, for widespread adoption to be possible. #DisabilityAccessibility #OpenSourceHardware #deGoogled

*I know what amounts to an open source version of a blackberry smartphone does exist, as I believe sliders (with full keyboards & bigger screens than blackberry) do, both being durable but I've yet to see any #deGoogled phones in those different design categories.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bearbeitet. (1 Woche her)
Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag

mastodon - Link zum Originalbeitrag
Shiro
Daniel is that you?
Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag

mastodon - Link zum Originalbeitrag
Shiro
Bingo!
Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag

mastodon - Link zum Originalbeitrag
GrapheneOS
Contrary to your false claim, iodéOS does not provide the latest Android privacy and security patches at all. They set a fake Android security patch level as do /e/ and LineageOS. They've misled you about what they actually provide. They do not provide all of the patches they claim to provide and even if they did those are only a subset of the overall Android privacy and security patches, which are NOT fully backported to older versions of the OS.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

It's the communities around /e/, iodéOS and SailfishOS which resort to endless misinformation, fabricated stories about our team, bullying and harassment. That includes extensive support from you folks for Kiwi Farms harassment. Falsely claiming we're engaging in violence and harassment with no basis is an egregious lie.

Here's Murena's CEO linking to libelous harassment content on a neo-nazi conspiracy site:

archive.is/SWXPJ
archive.is/n4yTO

Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag

mastodon - Link zum Originalbeitrag
GrapheneOS

Murena has spent years misleading people about GrapheneOS and attacking our team including directly engaging in libel and harassment. Here's an example of the founder of /e/ spreading a link to a neo-nazi conspiracy site attacking our founder with libel and harassment based around fabricated stories:

archive.is/SWXPJ
archive.is/n4yTO

Most alternate mobile OS projects are part of this for self-benefit. They feel threatened by GrapheneOS so they attack it.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

You are right about the #security and #privacy issues of your competitors, but you should not forget that we cannot use your OS, because we need a #Google device that has a shit #CPU and #GPU (SoP). #Trump made clear that we, #europe, have to focus on de-americanisation and china for our #sovereignity. Fortunately, you announced that you will have a cooperation with a phone builder and I hope it is not a chinese and american company. Europe needs de-risking!
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

No in /e/ I received Android alerts because patches were obsolete... Of several months🤣😅
Als Antwort auf NewDay

Each of those products has American and Chinese components. Fairphones are built in China, not Europe, and they use an American designed CPU. How are you avoiding either America or Europe by using a company selling you a white labelled Chinese device? It's not Fairphone designing or manufacturing the hardware but rather Fairphone's ODM partner in China. Fairphone has very little input into the device and has a tiny engineering team not capable of doing much.
Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag

mastodon - Link zum Originalbeitrag
nictakiego
well, Tuta is absolutely right here, that running a "deGoogled" OS on GOOGLE's phones only is not much of "deGoogle". You literally pay google to get rid of it, and you won't actually get rid of it completely, because your phone is made by them, your OS is based on THEIR OS.
Als Antwort auf s94

/e/, iodéOS and LineageOS set an inaccurate patch level field across devices. You don't realize you're being misled about which patches are provided. The patch level is a string which can be set to anything, and they wrongly set it to the latest month whenever they make updates despite missing some of the required patches for AOSP userspace across devices and most of the required patches for the Linux kernel, drivers and firmware across most devices.
Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag

mastodon - Link zum Originalbeitrag
s94
I am so sorry, I do not want to harass you but just to explain you that there is not only Graphene OS. And in spite the fact that I must admit that Graphene is just fascinating because of its multiple hardware-based security implementation, I have a Fairphone and I don't want to ditch it because it's just cool to have an easily-repairable phone😄
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

You are right about the components of the machines. #Trump did not even finish his first year, so I am okay with it, because the process starts now. You are using the extreme situation, because no one wants to ban these components, since there is not a company based in Europe that have the technology right now. It is a slow process. Manufacturing is a real problem, because of the salary. Vietnam becomes a new hotspot for manufacturing.
Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag

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Farshid Hakimy / فرشید
could you please quote the false claim?
I can't find it.
Dieser Beitrag wurde bearbeitet. (1 Woche her)
Als Antwort auf NewDay

It's Europe going after end-to-end encrypted messaging apps and secure operating systems including GrapheneOS. Europe passed Chat Control and is moving forward with bringing stricter terms. France and Spain have both had their law enforcement agencies attack GrapheneOS by trying to brand it as being for criminals and somehow tied to crimijnals for providing much more private and secure mobile devices. We see none of this stuff from the US, only from Europe.
Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag

mastodon - Link zum Originalbeitrag
Farshid Hakimy / فرشید
I do consider replies to a post that doesn't mention you that criticizes other projects to be at least aggressive.
I don't think this is a false claim and I don't think this was written in bad faith.
Als Antwort auf Farshid Hakimy / فرشید

> I do consider replies to a post that doesn't mention you that criticizes other projects to be at least aggressive.

Their article directly talks about GrapheneOS and contains false narratives and inaccurate claims about it based on the marketing from companies like Murena attacking us. Their post heavily promotes products based on inaccurate marketing from the companies, including multiple companies which are regularly attacking GrapheneOS.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

The claim that we engaged in any harassment or violence is an egregious lie, especially coming from a member of a community heavily engaged in those things towards the GrapheneOS team. We linked to an example of Murena's CEO directly supporting harassment from a neo-nazi conspiracy site above, and we can provide many more links showing it for both Murena themselves and from iodé's official business partners as part of collaboration with them.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

oooh I haven't even seen there was an article.
Yeah, I don't consider it aggressive anymore.
Als Antwort auf Tuta

The title of the blog:

"DeGoogled phones, made in Europe: Fairphone, Volla, SHIFTphone, Punkt – a full review."

May require to read the title once more (or twice) for some..

btw: the text is then upgraded with the manufacturers os choises.. yes..

It is time for European tech to free itself and rise from the dead. We are no slaves to no one.

Als Antwort auf Farshid Hakimy / فرشید

So then why not remove that reply if it's not what you think? However, how would replying to this be aggressive if the article did not contain major inaccuracies about GrapheneOS based on the marketing from Murena and others? It's still promoting unsafe products based on the marketing claims from those companies. Why is it a problem for people to respond and talk about it? Posting factual info which someone doesn't agree with is not aggression.
Als Antwort auf Farshid Hakimy / فرشید

> With your aggressive community on Mastodon

> I don't criticize your OS but your violent answers.

> So I think that your answer is a form of harassment, to say that you will convince your userbase not to use Tuta

False accusations of violence and harassment from a community which actually engages in violence and harassment towards the GrapheneOS team. They're egregiously lying about us. They say they're "sorry" but left up that post.

Als Antwort auf nictakiego

A Google partner (Fairphone) with GMS in their stock OS running an alternate OS which has another GMS implementation included and always connects to Google services while giving them a highly privileged status in the OS somehow qualifies for the list.

All 5 of the products they've listed use operating systems forked from AOSP. Other options existing for some of the hardware still use a large amount of AOSP code for their hardware support and functionality.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

What's the point of bringing up that GrapheneOS is based on AOSP when every single option on the list they provided is baed on it?

/e/ is based on an outdated version of the Android Open Source Project and adds a bunch of privileged Google service integration to it. /e/ has more connections to Google services than AOSP and gives highly privileged access to Google apps/services out-of-the-box.

/e/ does not provide essential standard patches and protections.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Your argumentation is just bad. You do not see it, because it happens already. The US had several scandals about these topics. US Oligarch are lobbying to destroy the EU, because they have to pay fines, if they do not comply. Cook, Musk, Zuckerberg threaten the EU publicly. US companies are openly working with the Government. 24/7. @signalapp had to work with the US. Fortunately, they have no data. Chat Control is bad and all Governments that use it, should
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Most of what they've listed uses /e/ or the very similar iodéOS.

They mentioned CalyxOS as a side note and wrongly called it hardened which is untrue and it also hasn't received the 2026-06-05 or later patch level due to updates being discontinued.

They also wrongly called Punkt hardened. Punkt was originally heavily marketed as being 'based on GrapheneOS' but only took a portion of our old code, merged it with LineageOS code and didn't stay up-to-date.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

you are right, in general, I wouldn't call that behavior aggressive.
However, I do think that it is aggressive if it comes from another OS project for phones, because it could be seen as a form of marketing.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Punkt's device is years behind on AOSP updates and only ever used a subset of our old code, which is now years of out-of-date.

None of the listed products are providing basic privacy and security patches or providing all the standard AOSP privacy/security protections hardened. None of them is hardened, but rather quite the opposite. It's completely wrong to call those products hardened.

Als Antwort auf Farshid Hakimy / فرشید

Tuta is a for-profit company engaging in marketing with their post. Each of the 5 options they're promoting are products from for-profit companies. Their post is based around the inaccurate marketing from those companies and is therefore inaccurate itself. Their post propagates false narratives and inaccurate claims about GrapheneOS and how it compares to those including wrongly calling multiple of them hardened and much more than that.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS is an open source project supporting by a non-profit. It's not a product, it doesn't have a marketing team and it doesn't exist for people to get rich from it. No one is getting rich from working on GrapheneOS or going to since that's not the point. Responding to inaccurate marketing with accurate information is fully within the scope of the official mission of our non-profit which is protecting people's privacy and security.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

It's our official mission to not only build better privacy and security technology but to advocate for it. That includes pointing out when products do not provide the privacy and security they claim to offer in their marketing, although we mostly limit ourselves to doing it when they attack GrapheneOS as we have enough to deal with already.

Murena has made a massive amount of attacks on GrapheneOS for years. We didn't initially respond.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

I get that and I do support your mission.
But these posts make it easy to spread a narrative of GrapheneOS attacking their competitors.
Als Antwort auf Farshid Hakimy / فرشید

None of those products are our competitors. None provide even the standard Android privacy/security patches and privacy/security protections. Their article listed 5 hardware products and GrapheneOS is not a hardware company. Those hardware products don't meet our official requirements (grapheneos.org/faq#future-devi…) which is why we don't and won't ever support them. How are insecure hardware products and operating systems competition for us?
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

iOS and iPhones are actual competition providing a very high level of security combined with great privacy from apps and services. Apple also focuses on local processing of data and minimizing what's sent to their servers, with /e/ sending user data to OpenAI for STT vs. Apple doing the processing locally being a very representative example. Apple also has end-to-end encryption for most messaging and most iCloud services although not all of it.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

I don't get why alternate OS devs keep fighting each other instead of unite to fight against the real enemy. Just make one, good, reliable European OS and stop fighting for your 0,0001% marketshare you idiots.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Apple has a lot of resources and is taking privacy and security very seriously. They're nearly the only smartphone company claiming to make private and secure products which is actually doing what they say. Many of these small companies are claiming to be doing something they're not actually doing. They have a lot to say about privacy in their marketing but fail to provide the bare minimum of standard privacy patches and protections.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

and Yes, it's up to the EU to make the security policy, not the OS devs. You need more users to talk peer to peer with EU legislators
Als Antwort auf Tuta

None of these devices with their operating systems are secure and privacy-friendly; quite the contrary, they are a major downgrade from AOSP in security, privacy and usability.
Dieser Beitrag wurde bearbeitet. (1 Woche her)
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

I know they are not really competition, I do use GrapheneOS myself, but this is the narrative they use to make GrapheneOS look bad.
Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

It's Europe going after end-to-end encrypted messaging apps and secure operating systems including GrapheneOS. Europe passed Chat Control and is moving forward with bringing stricter terms. France and Spain have both had their law enforcement agencies attack GrapheneOS by trying to brand it as being for criminals and somehow tied to crimijnals for providing much more private and secure mobile devices. We HAVE talked to EU legislators repeatedly.
Als Antwort auf Farshid Hakimy / فرشید

They've spent years misleading people about GrapheneOS and their products to promote them and profit from it. Why is it a problem for us to post factual information in response? They were harming GrapheneOS with attacks us before we began posting about it in response. The more they attack GrapheneOS, the more we're going to respond to it. We're not a company selling people products and our focus is informing people not marketing GrapheneOS.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

I know, but despite the branding associated to the OS, you must aknowledge that a perfectly made (I'll give u this) Privacy OS can be used by criminals to hide. It is a very powerful tool to be used with caution and legislators probably see something privacy advocates can't see.
Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

They're not genuine privacy products despite how they're marketed. These are for-profit companies using privacy as a branding/marketing focus to earn money because without it they'd have little reason to justify the devices existing. Reality is that they're providing worse privacy than Apple and dramatically worse security. They're not doing the bare minimum of providing standard privacy/security patches/protections let alone making hardened devices.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

We do work with open source privacy projects including us previously collaborating with DivestOS and to a lesser extent ProtonAOSP which wasn't very focused on privacy or especially security.

Murena has spent years misleading people about GrapheneOS and attacking our team to promote their products. Both /e/ from Murena and iodéOS are based in France, a country where private/secure devices aren't being tolerated, which is not a problem for either.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

France has recently heavily gone after GrapheneOS while /e/ and Murena receive substantial government support. /e/ also receives millions of euros in EU funding which is used to build products sold by Murena despite the funding being meant for non-profits. The people control the non-profit for /e/ are the people who own Murena, the company selling the products. /e/ includes Murena's paid services including speech-to-text sending audio to OpenAI.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

1) A business to be reliable and sustainable must earn money somehow.

2) There are different ways to make money, some are acceptable, some are not.

3) I'm a /e/OS user and have been a Graphene OS user in the past. I'm willing to pay for a European company to make a good OS and a reliable cloud service (which murena doesn't have).

4) If Murena has privacy and security issues help them get better instead of starting a whole new OS and foster fragmentation

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

a question:

Why do you think the french goverment supports murena and not you?

Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

Murena's products are a scam with extraordinarily poor privacy and security. They actively mislead people about what they provide to profit from it. Murena's services are also immensely problematic too. The lack of reliability for their operating system and services is far less of an issue than the lack of privacy and security.

Why would we help a for-profit company which has spent years attacking GrapheneOS and trying to direct harassment towards us?

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

We posted a clear example above of Gaël Duval directly linking to egregious harassment content on a neo-nazi conspiracy site. He posted that in multiple places as part of him trying to take advantage of the French government attacks on GrapheneOS. He has repeatedly engaged in libel towards our team and has supported/soread Kiwi Farms harassment content. Why do you think we should help someone scamming people and attacking us earn more money?
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

because people seeing your response here don't have any of this context and to them it looks like you are attacking the other projects to promote your own os.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Cause while u keep fighting for 0,00001% marketshare Apple and Google have 99,99999%

Put both ur egos aside and start working together for

ONE
GOOD
RELIABLE
SECURE
PRIVATE
EUROPEAN
MOBILE OS

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

I'm not defending Murena, I think their security can definitely be improved and their nextcloud instance leaves a lot to be desired. But fragmentation is not the answer. You have proved amazing dev skills and get praised for that. You are a security and privacy guru. Just work with the government, not against it. You can not expect the government to accept an impossible-to-detect OS that CAN be used with bad intentions. Not saying WILL, just CAN.
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Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

Murena's products and services are a scam. They do not provide what they claim. They're wrongly getting EU funding for their supposed non-profit which exists to build products for their for-profit company. /e/ includes Murena's for-profit services and is mainly used via Murena selling devices, yet this is where EU funding is going. It's a form of corruption that's all too common. Governments should not be choosing companies to enrich this way.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS is a privacy and security project which exists to defend users not only from corporations but also from authoritarian states. Why would we work with increasingly authoritarian governments? We won't accept government funding or support. It's not something we want or are trying to obtain. We explicitly don't want it. Governments are welcome to use GrapheneOS and we do want that but we do not want their money which comes with strings attached.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Murena isn't actually on the side of privacy and security but rather is profiting from them while weakening those. They're not going to make products which properly protect user privacy and security. It conflicts with how they do things and isn't what they care about. It makes no sense to help a company that's scamming people, lowering people's privacy/security and which has spent years attacking our project/team. They're not on the same side as us.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Do you realize that it is the government that makes the policy, not you?

Increasingly authoritarian where? Not Europe.

I value European Digital sovereignty over Privacy or Security. Even though I mainly use Open Source apps.

It definitely looks like you are fighting a fight of your own and will remain a super niche OS for privacy and security geeks.

Murena is trying to reach the widest user base and to do so u have to do some compromise.

Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

Murena's products are the direct opposite of bringing people better privacy. They're extremely insecure and non-private without even the basics including important standard privacy/security patches and protections. You should read the information which has been linked. Murena's goal is earning as much money as possible for the investors. Privacy is very clearly a branding/marketing tool to do that rather than their actual goal.

discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134…

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

false.

Zoom out a bit.

You are on the same fking side against big tech and trying to build a different answer just with slightly different approach.

You value privacy and security over ease of use and they value UX/UI over security.

Think about what would happen if you both joined forces???

A good UX UI in a private and secure OS? WHY DO YOU FORCE UR USERS TO CHOOSE!!!

Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

Murena definitely isn't on the same side as GrapheneOS. Murena's goal is earning as much profit as possible and despite /e/ having a non-profit it clearly exists for the benefit of Murena in a way that's likely illegal and is clearly highly corrupt regardless of the legality.

GrapheneOS highly values privacy, security, ease of use and app compatibility. Murena misleads people about what we provide and our focus along with what they provide.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

What do you think we would want from an outdated fork of AOSP with a bunch of poor UI design trying to copy iOS and doing it very badly? We greatly prefer the standard Android user interface used on many operating systems including the stock Pixel OS over the mess Murena has created trying to copy iOS. Meanwhile, iOS has moved on and switched their design increasingly towards modern Android while /e/ was trying to copy the way iOS used to be instead.
Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag

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Giorgio Pasqualini
I don t want to give my money to a US company who paid for trump's election so my money will go to murena even if this means I will sacrifice some security and privacy. Shit happens, I have picked my poison while you'll die of thirst cause u won't pick any
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Murena has spent years misleading people about GrapheneOS, attacking our project and attacking our team. They're not on the same side as GrapheneOS. Companies scamming people with fake privacy products are the main enemies of GrapheneOS. They're the ones heavily investing in attacking the project and our team. We don't see these companies as competitors and the only reason we're talking about them is because of the relentless assault on GrapheneOS.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Murena's products are far worse for privacy and security than iPhones. They're massively rolling those back, not improving them. Their products are outright unsafe and not fit for purpose. It's not compromise but rather scamming people. Murena provides far less stability and app compatibility than GrapheneOS. They're not more aimed at regular people than GrapheneOS. Doing things properly especially with privacy and security as a focus takes more time.
Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

GrapheneOS is based on Android 16 QPR2. The standard user interface it provides is great. Replacing the legacy AOSP apps is not actually a massive project and largely depends on choosing the best open source apps with permissive licensing to fork and improve to meet our standards. It's simply not a priority for us because we care about improving the OS rather than apps people can install. We want to bundle very little and not build in 3rd party stuff.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

We disagree with operating systems and especially hardware products using that position to make apps with special OS integration which others can't properly compete with. Murena builds in privileged support for Google services and always connects to a bunch of Google services. They build in privileged integration for their own paid Murena services to /e/ despite /e/ supposedly being made by a non-profit which really only exists for the for-profit.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS is partnered with one of the largest 10 Android OEMs by device sales since June 2025. We're working on them towards devices providing proper privacy and security to match Pixels and later exceed them with future generations. It's not easy to do this right and they're putting significant resources into it but it's still going to be 2027 when it launches. 2026 was possible but there turned out to be security limitations for current Snapdragon.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Why do you think taking this longer approach and working with a company that's going to make a high quality product is not going to succeed? People are not doubt going to find other reasons to attack GrapheneOS once that launches, and we'll fight back.

Europe is increasingly moving towards disallowing the kinds of privacy and security products and services we care about building, so maybe you won't be allowed to buy and use this device by 2027 anyway.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

We're never going to make a backdoored variant of GrapheneOS for Europe regardless of what laws they pass restricting end-to-end encryption, disk encryption and private/secure devices/software in general. They passed a watered down form of Chat Control already and are moving towards expanding that. We're going to be including our own E2EE RCS app and if that's not legal in Europe when we ship it, that's a problem for Europe rather than for us.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

top 10 means not European. Just make sure it is not an American company and it supports:

120hz/variable refresh rate
NFC payments
Wireless charging/MAGSAFE standard.

I think you should anyway work with someone and find a compromise with the EU government.

Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

It will be a flagship Snapdragon device because that's currently the only viable option for a secure smartphone beyond an iPhone or Pixel. The latest Snapdragon generation has some issues which kept the initial 2026 devices from meeting our requirements but we likely needed the extra time anyway. It took several months to get things going and it's simply not realistic to bring their devices and software up to par in half a year rather than over a year.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

We aren't going to work with ANY governments. GrapheneOS is an international project and will move operations and server hosting as needed. We pulled out of France due to their increasing hostility towards encryption and direct attacks on us. We're not going to include any backdoors or weaknesses for them or anyone else in GrapheneOS. If Canada expected that, we'd leave Canada. GrapheneOS is not the GrapheneOS Foundation non-profit in Canada.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS Foundation non-profit we formed in Canada exists to support GrapheneOS, not the other way around. We can form a non-profit in another country and could move operations there too if it was needed. For now, Canada is a great place to develop it as everything we do is completely legal and we've faced absolutely no issues or hostility from the government. The only issues with law enforcement are swatting attacks by supporters of CalyxOS and /e/.
Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

No, you aren't attacking us.

That's not what we're talking about. Do you know what a swatting attack is?

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

I get your point now. I'm sorry I did not read the article and did not know the full context. I was just reffering the Tuta's answer to you. I admit you properly pointed this article out as being unfair but I believe its just because of a mistake, human error. I think we all can agree that GrapheneOS is currently the most private and secure mobile OS and in comparison to other options from the list it is outstanding in privacy from ANY entity, not just Google. But the truth is, GrapheneOS is not really "deGoogled" OS and that statement is true from Tuta. But paradoxically its the most "degoogled" solution from this list, because you cannot expect any privacy without security first, if other OSes have unimplemented patches it makes them compromised from everyone, from Microsoft to Google, Facebook, CIA and Israel's hackers.
So I hope Tuta either update the article promoting GrapheneOS the most from the other solutions, yet pointing out its still based on Google pixels and Google's OS, or remove the article completely.
Als Antwort auf nictakiego

Everything on the list is based on AOSP. Most of the list includes baked in privileged Google service integration. Fairphone is a Google Mobile Services partner where the stock OS has privileged Google Play services and /e/ has privileged microG integration enabled out-of-the-box with many Google connections from it and other components.

/e/ lacks standard privacy patches and protections. It ALSO has extremely poor security, and privacy depends on security.

Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

Europe is making it illegal to make secure services and devices, not for people to use them. If they wanted to make it illegal for people to use them, they'd need to make special cases for tourists, people visting for business, etc. as they can't be expected to have backdoored devices built for the European market. France has anti-privacy laws similar to that for using cash where foreigners can use larger amounts of cash so it's entirely possible.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Yes, other solutions are worse, but GrapheneOS is not ideal either. As you mentioned everything on this list is based on AOSP, including GrapheneOS.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Chat Control is a massive leap towards forcing services to provide backdoors state access to end-to-end encrypted messages. They're not yet forcing it to be done, but are going to be making it painful to not do it. It's not yet clear exactly how that's going to work but it's clear that it's going to be happening. They can pass a stricter version making it mandatory and likely will do so, but they started with it watered down to get it passed.
Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

Sure, we can see why the authoritarian governments of large countries with centralized governments want to have backdoors. We're not going to be providing any. Companies based in France aren't going to have much choice, and yet neither of those OSes seems particularly worried about the situation they're in. Both are promoting the fact that they're based in France rather than advocating against what's happening in their country.
Als Antwort auf nictakiego

AOSP is much more private and secure than the desktop Linux software stack. People expect to have mainstream app compatibility and it's very important to make a usable device. Play Integrity API slightly eroding app compatibility for a tiny subset of overall apps is a major regression rather than a small issue. Entirely losing support for the existing app ecosystem would not be viable for most people. Support for those apps pretty much implies using AOSP.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

if terrorists are planning a bombing attack, I want my country to know it before it takes place. When criminals are moving cocaine, I want my government to put them in jail before they deal too much damage. Chat control can be done by AI with zero data access whatsoever if not when purposely leaked by ai due to suspicious activities. Or something like this.
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Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

SailfishOS is a much less private and secure OS than AOSP which is largely closed source for the components specific to it rather than fully open source. AOSP is open source. For app compatibility, SaiflishOS runs AOSP inside of namespaces with the privacy/security model almost entirely disabled and far weaker security against the apps taking over the device. What's the point of running a much less private and secure software stack instead of AOSP?
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

ever heard of Israeli Pegasus spyware? Can u prevent that on graphene OS?
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS exists to provide a high level of privacy and security, not avoiding one particular company and their services more than others. It only connects to GrapheneOS servers by default with a lot of control over that and heavy focus on improving the privacy for those and the opt-in services such as our work on providing fully offline network-based location support as an enhancement over our current iOS-based semi-offline network location approach.
Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

GrapheneOS provides far stronger exploit protections making it impossible to exploit a large subset of remote vulnerabilities and far harder to exploit nearly all of the rest. We don't have specific information on what NSO supports but we do know that GrapheneOS very successfully protects against Cellebrite's exploitation of devices for data extraction. /e/ makes exploitation dramatically easier than it is with an iPhone remotely, from apps, etc.
Als Antwort auf Tuta

I'm in the USA right now and I sure wish there was an equivalent choice in the USA.

The #corporatization problem is world-wide.

Als Antwort auf AL

Hello, The Murena Fairphone (Gen.6) is available in the USA! Feel free to have a look at our blog article: murena.com/america/how-to-get-…
Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

So if Europe start to make authoritative policies we should accept them?
Independent project as GrapheneOs is important to circumvent censorship (Europe don't do that at the moment) is not just a paranoid Os for privacy enthusiasts or nerd.

In my opinion every Governments are in a deep crisis cause almost every one are incapable to run as the same speed of the progress. Too many laws are made without acknowledgement of the context.

Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag

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GrapheneOS
It's much worse at protecting people from exploits than an iPhone. It makes it far easier for apps to take over the device, remote exploits to take over the device and for data to be extracted. It's a gift to governments wanting to be able to get into people's devices. It makes complete sense for governments against highly secure devices to support an OS that's making it far easier for them to get in than an iPhone.
Als Antwort auf myhovertime

OFC not. Should Europe become an authoritative place I would be the first to fight against it.

So far it's one of the very few places on earth I could say Im proud to belong to.

GrapheneOS can remain an option for places with authoritarian goverments, I see /e/OS as a more user friendly "for the masses" commercial approach that wants to offer an alternative to google and Apple and I see nothing bad about it.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Murena have around 100k users worldwide. The government wont earn much from such limited user base
Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

GrapheneOS has over 300k users despite only supporting secure devices meeting our requirements. The vast majority of GrapheneOS users purchased devices specifically to install it and installed it themselves. People do buy devices with it preinstalled but those are currently significantly more expensive. We expect our userbase to increase far faster once we have devices from our OEM partner even if they aren't initially sold with it.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

it also depends on what you want to defend yourself from. I dont give a sht about being defended by the EU government because I trust it. I care about being defended by big techs because I dont trust them and Murena does a good job in that sense
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MutuallyPrecautionary
Could you elaborate on your concerns on Tuta[nota]?
Als Antwort auf Tuta

@GrapheneOS

I am shocked that GrapheneOS is not part of the initial post. It should be on top of the list.
My dream would be Shift phone hardware with GrapheneOS.
I switched from iOS to GOS and I seem to never look elsewhere in the future

Als Antwort auf bub4don

@bub4don Their hardware doesn't come close to meeting our requirements for updates and security which is the main reason it's not supported and won't be supported. It has been made quite clear that they aren't capable of meeting our requirements and don't want to focus on it. They can sell devices to people who want privacy without providing reasonable privacy or security regardless. We're working with a major Android OEM towards devices meeting our requirements in 2027.
Als Antwort auf Tuta

I run LineageOS on my @fairphone and I love it, its completely google free and nearly 100% open source software installed, can recommend! wanted to try Murena but that is currently not recommended even by themselves. havent tried the others. would love to run GrapheneOS but I am neither rich nor do I want to buy a Google phone, ever
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

so what should I do? Purchase a Pixel? I don't have money to spend in a new smartphone. On my Fairphone, there is only a few ROMs working, and I think iodé is the best for my device.
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s94

GrapheneOS has a huge potential so we must encourage users and communities to change their mind with pedagogy and details. Your feature page is impressive to read!

I really support your project and I am just waiting for a support of new devices

Thanks for your work

Als Antwort auf Tuta

punkt is subscription based they require data by default and money outside of the phone itself your paying for the os at 9.99 a month after the free months offer yo wtf!!!!!!!
Dieser Beitrag wurde bearbeitet. (1 Woche her)
Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

Murena builds in a bunch of big tech services with privileged access, sends them sensitive data from your device and fails to provide even the standard Android privacy patches/protections needed to protect privacy from apps. They're definitely not doing a reasonable job at protecting user privacy from corporations.

Not clear why you would trust governments which wants mass surveillance to respect your privacy but that's a much separate issue...

Als Antwort auf marcusxms

@marcusxms @lexinova Android is Linux. Linux doesn't mean systemd, glibc and GNOME. Bringing systemd to mobile is not bringing Linux to mobile where it already has majority usage share. Android works fine with mainline kernels and nearly all of those operating systems just use Android's hardware abstraction layer, etc. anyway without bothering to update it.

Pixels are currently the only devices meeting our hardware requirements and most OEMs aren't interested in making secure devices.

Als Antwort auf s94

Fairphones lack reasonable security and updates regardless of OS choice. You're better off using LineageOS than iodéOS than either of these forks of it though.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

what you call surveillance, I call legitimate right for a state to grant security to all citizens. We live in a democracy and in order for a government to actually spy on chats, a judge should intervene or whatever. There can be different levels of access. Just, it's what someone responsible for granting everyone security would want. Privacy comes after security.
Als Antwort auf s94

Thanks. Our features page covers most of what we provide and should be up-to-date for what's included. It's missing many of the smaller features and some of the large recent additions. We plan to expand it to cover more of the smaller features and recently added larger features soon.
Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

Why should an unelected official accountable to no one be able to authorize spying on arbitrary people? How is that democratic?
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

judges are not elected, they obtain their charge through a public contest after decades of study. They swear on the costitution and must obey the law, they are a counter-power to elected parliament and nominated government. The parliament is elected and can modify the laws that judges must obey. It's basic democracy.
Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

please no EU based operating system, would like to not have backdoors enforced in it (Chat Control, Going Dark etc)
There is no security in the EU and privacy is soon dead too (see GDPR)
Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag

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Giorgio Pasqualini
go ahead with graphene OS, keep being skeptical about other altroms, keep not trusting the EU and isolate urself from anyone using a google device or ur privacy will be useless.
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Kolja
not everywhere else is hell on earth and the EU is not heaven. If you would have read the replies you would have understood by now that the EU doesent want privacy, they active working on banning it. So there will be no solution for the masses - at least not in the EU unless we change that.
I work in privacy, opsec and cybersecurity since over 15 years, i know how things work.
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Giorgio Pasqualini
not trolling at all. I'm sick and tired of people overcriticizing the EU while everywhere else is hell on earth. Im tired of alternative OS developers not wanting to work together for a European alternative to big techs for the masses. You think you know it all because you have ur privacy tools on ur phone? Guess what, all people saving ur phone number on their google phone are tracked and you are too. We need a solution for the masses!!
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Kolja
never said that. Just that your wished EU only privacy thing wont exist because of the many reasons provided. From technical limits to EU laws preventing it.
Which is a shame given what the EU supposed to stand for.
But i assume you are just trolling so goodbye ;)
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Giorgio Pasqualini
Yes the EU is terrible, time to move to Russia, see you there!
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Kolja
given your answer you have not read anything about it or a remote idea what it means. Your US big tech companies are nothing compared to chatcontrol where all your text is read or going dark where encryption is fully banned and any privacy company is prosecuted. And soon mass data retention is back.
And Europe is not as free as you think if you pay close attention to laws in Hungary, Germany, France etc.
Als Antwort auf Kolja

I dont give a shit about extreme privacy, a government who wants to track you will do it anyway with Israeli software Paragon. I want to be set free from US big tech companies, not from my own country. You are basically denying the authority of the state when saying so and thus I can not agree with you. We dont live in Russia, China or Trump's America. We live in Europe and we are basically free to do and say whatever we want.
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Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

GrapheneOS is not in remotely the same space as other alternate mobile operating systems. None of those is a privacy or security hardened OS. They're only alternatives to the mainstream options with significantly worse privacy and dramatically worse security than an iPhone. You promote scam products from Murena, a company which has engaged in many years of attacks on real privacy/security options including harassing the developers.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

I promote nothing at all. All I want is an easily accessible non-big-tech os for the masses.
Dieser Beitrag wurde bearbeitet. (1 Woche her)
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

You've made it very clear in this thread that you're an authoritarian who doesn't believe in privacy or security but rather you want the government to have access to people's devices and engage in mass surveillance. It makes sense that you use and support /e/ because it's perfectly aligned with all of that. Governments support "data sovereignty" so they can enforce providing them access to people's data and backdoors in encryption.
Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

Here's your own timelime:

mastodon.social/@giorgiopasqua…

One of the two posts is boosting a serial harasser who targeted both DivestOS and GrapheneOS with fabricated stories and direct harassment including vile personal attacks. We showed an example here of him linking to harassment content on a neo-nazi conspiracy site and we can show a lot more.

archive.is/SWXPJ
archive.is/n4yTO

He's a scammer harming privacy projects.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

I don't want mass surveillance and if chat control became a tool for mass surveillance I would be the first one to be against it.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

I'm no scammer at all. And I don't need to read my timeline to know what I think. I already know it.

All I'd want is cooperation among altroms, you made it clear you don't want to cooperate with others because you think they are scammers. It's ok, I'm sad about it and I won't ask you again to do it. I'll give a try to graphene OS when it will be released (on non pixel devices) provided the OEM is not from the US.

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Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

/e/ and iodéOS have engaged in years of attacks on on serious privacy/security projects while promoting their non-private and extraordinarily insecure products without the bare minimum for basic privacy and security. Companies selling fake privacy products making people far worse off than using iPhones are not pro-privacy. They're in fact against privacy and just profiting off it.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Most of their selling point is being EU-based and against big-tech, working for profit is not something I see badly, Graphene OS privacy is far superior and we all know about it.
Als Antwort auf Giorgio Pasqualini

It makes no sense to call for us to collaborate with groups who have engaged in years of attacks on GrapheneOS and our allies including DivestOS. They succeeded in killing off DivestOS through harassment. They're fine with enabling mass surveillance and authoritarianism. They only care about avoiding Google but yet use Google's code and services. Both companies use privacy for marketing but are in fact anti-privacy projects in reality.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

The only SoC we want in a GrapheneOS device at this time is a flagship Snapdragon with hardware memory tagging, a secure element and many years of update support. The SoC is the most highly privileged and important part of the device. Everything else is secondary.

Fairphone is based in Europe but barely does engineering. That's done by their Chinese ODM partner. Fairphones are designed and manufactured in China with an American SoC.

Als Antwort auf Tuta

I de-Google for less than the 100%. by using an iPhone. Perhaps some 90%? I assume Apple and Google still have deals to keep Google the default search egine on iOS and macOS.
Als Antwort auf Tuta

@tinker
For me, it'
#ungoogle / #ungafam ,

Graphene os offers a high level of security.
I am considering buying one, but second-hand.

I am also looking into putting another os on my old Samsung A6, if anyone knows how to.

Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag

mastodon - Link zum Originalbeitrag
GrapheneOS
You seem to be misinterpreting our reply here.
Als Antwort auf Tuta

Although each option has its own strengths and weaknesses, fighting amongst them does not help anyone. The enemy is the other side (Goo...). I prefer @murena because it strikes a good balance between privacy and usability for the average user.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS is a privacy project. It exists to provide a high level of privacy. Providing privacy requires providing strong security, so we heavily work on that too.All of the security features exist for protecting privacy, no other reason. It provides a bunch of privacy features such as Contact Scopes, Storage Scopes, Sensors toggle and much more along with very private default services. It provides major exploit protection improvements to protect user privacy.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS is frequently misrepresented as being a security project rather than a privacy project, which is untrue. These claims mainly originate from companies such as Murena heavily misinforming people about GrapheneOS and their own products in order to market those and profit from it. They misrepresent their products as being privacy products in contrast with what they inaccurately claim is a security rather than a privacy option. It's completely wrong.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Their products do not provide a reasonable level of privacy due to lacking crucial standard privacy patches and protections. They also have absolutely atrocious security which means attackers can compromise user devices from apps, remotely or bypass disk encryption with physical access far more easily than they can with an iPhone. These exploit tools are widely available and widely used. Anti-encryption states are targeting GrapheneOS because it protects users.
Als Antwort auf Tuta

imho i think there should be a privacy-respecting feature phone, kinda like sidephone

i barely use a smartphone and prefer doing stuff on a laptop

Als Antwort auf NewDay

be critised. It is correct that criminals use GraphenOS, but it should not be an argument to ban the OS here. It is time to finally realise that open borders were a misguided policy, which led to the emergence of the Mocro Mafia in the Netherlands, the Lebanese Mafia in Germany, the Algerian and Lebanese Mafia in France, the Albanian Mafia across Europe, and the Turkish, Kurdish,
Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag

mastodon - Link zum Originalbeitrag
GrapheneOS

We didn't change the subject.

EU states are the only ones targeted GrapheneOS with attacks. It's not being attacked by the US, Brazil, Iran, China, etc. but rather France, Spain, Sweden and the Netherlands.

EU states and the EU itself are leading the charge among western countries to ban encryption and secure devices. The sovereignty you talk about is largely about governments having access to data and the ability to force companies to do things.

Als Antwort auf NewDay

Iranian and Iraqi Mafia in Sweden. Banning GrapheneOS would merely be a token gesture and would not address the root of the problem.
You are also changing the subject, from sovereignty to even crime.
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Als Antwort auf NewDay

Every EU phone company largely uses American and Chinese technology. The phones are at most assembled in the EU. That's not even the case for Fairphone where it's simply a European brand for a Chinese designed and manufactured device from their ODM. Putting components together into a case in the EU doesn't reduce trust in the US or China. EU barely has a tech industry compared to either and what it does have is mostly a thin layer over US technology.
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

Either way, US and Chinese companies are trusted. What's the benefit of trusting a European company too? How is that independence or sovereignty?

GrapheneOS isn't based in Europe. We have servers there to provide high throughput and low latency for our users in Europe, that's all. We no longer have servers in France or with OVH for our public services, with 1 more OVH server the OS doesn't use left to replace. We aren't based in the US either.

Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

mastodon.social/@NewDay14/1158… a slow process that started, because of the first year of Trump. Poland to fund companies that produce and develop RAM, Germany is currently funding Semiconductor start ups in the Regions of TU9, Mistral is completely backed by France, etc.

Trump and Miller are speeding up this process. Thank you!


You are right about the components of the machines. #Trump did not even finish his first year, so I am okay with it, because the process starts now. You are using the extreme situation, because no one wants to ban these components, since there is not a company based in Europe that have the technology right now. It is a slow process. Manufacturing is a real problem, because of the salary. Vietnam becomes a new hotspot for manufacturing.

Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag

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GrapheneOS

@lajuste @lexinova @marcusxms
> how to trust the hardware

It's the only hardware meeting our security requirements. It's the most widely externally audited/reviewed. There's no alternative providing competitive security with an iPhone. Nothing else has even reasonable security with alternate OS support.

> baseband chip can be vicious and work without any control of the OS on the phone and still accessing everything

No, not at all true. This is a widely propagated falsehood.

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Balibalou
@lexinova @marcusxms @GrapheneOS but how to trust the hardware, almost all the chip inside are under Google control, and we already know how the baseband chip can be vicious and work without any control of the OS on the phone and still accessing everything.
I prefer just not trust my phone for sensitive data at all
Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag

mastodon - Link zum Originalbeitrag
GrapheneOS
@lexinova @lajuste @marcusxms Nope, it's highly inaccurate. Cellular radios are implemented in the same way as Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, NFC and UWB in modern smartphones. They're isolated components and do not have control over the device. They do not have a different approach to how the firmware works than other kinds of radios either. Wi-Fi in a laptop or desktop has a similar RTOS on the Wi-Fi SoC. Unlike a modern flagship smartphone those are much less hardened and often not isolated.
Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag

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Balibalou
@lexinova @marcusxms @GrapheneOS or not, it is a well known fact that the baseband model is a huge risk for privacy and security
androidauthority.com/smartphon…
Als Antwort auf Balibalou

@lajuste @lexinova @marcusxms You have this backwards. Laptops/desktops almost all have very poor hardware security including far worse isolation for components. Modern smartphone cellular radios are integrated in a similar way to other radios and have a very standard approach to firmware similar to those. Wi-Fi is nearly the same. Many components in a modern computer run an OS, often multiple. Flagship smartphones have drastically better security than non-Mac laptop/desktop hardware.
Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag

mastodon - Link zum Originalbeitrag
GrapheneOS
@lajuste @lexinova @marcusxms You're heavily misunderstanding this post. Cellular radios have been isolated from the rest of the device since before the first Pixels. Further hardening the cellular radio firmware and hardware against attacks is a very good thing. Your claim that it can't be verified is in fact wrong because the firmware code is available and not actually obfuscated. Closed source doesn't mean black box for sofware and often doesn't for firmware either.
Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag

mastodon - Link zum Originalbeitrag
Balibalou
@lexinova @marcusxms @GrapheneOS even Google is worry about it and officially try to correct the issues security.googleblog.com/2024/1…
But no way to confirm what Google or any manufacturer is doing.
Or what pixel security is for the 8 and before 9to5google.com/2024/10/03/pixe…
And the SoC they use has still Samsung Exynos proprietary components, I am curious if it is also the case for the baseband modem
Als Antwort auf GrapheneOS

@lajuste @lexinova @marcusxms Not having the SOURCE code doesn't mean not having the code that's run on the device. It's hardware which is actually a black box even if it's nearly non-existent open hardware. You can't verify that open hardware matches the open source code for the hardware design in practice, so you're still trusting the manufacturers in practice. Open hardware doesn't avoid trust in the manufacturers. Neither does open source software with reproducible builds anyway.